I disagree - I think Christian music is completely on par with quality of secular. I spent my first 21 years listening to many forms of secular music, but the last 12 has been just Christian. And of course, the lyrics and passion in the Christian music is safe and moral and etc. But again, I easily put the likes of Third Day, David Crowder, Barlow Girl, Newsboys, tobyMac, and countless others on the same level of quality as any secular band.

Curious - what bands are you listening to? That might play a part in your opinion.

tb

There is very little Christian music that I really like as a musician. I am not sure if Rob was coming at it from this angle or not as he is a musician too. For me it is the musical quality. I dislike some of it for the music quality just as much as I do most pop music.

I do think your reasoning for the music to play with the family is spot on. I agree that it is much easier to play Christian music for the family than worrying abuout every song that comes on the radio. Also, you got it totally. In the middle of the pop junk, there is some really good Christian music. For me, a lot of the good stuff is the actualy worship music.

I don't draw the same distinction that a lot of folks do. I see "Christian" music as unique for is it the only genre that is not based on style but instead on who the product is marketed to. Music on the wrong label is never considered "Christian". Let's say you have a musician who is a believer and covers both sacred and secular themes. On American Recordings, Johnny Cash's music progresses from a murder ballad ("Delia's Gone") to as good a worship song as I've ever heard ("Why Me Lord"). Would anyone consider this "Christian" music? I doubt it. I see it a believer exploring a variety of topics. The flip-side, years ago Petra, the church's top-40 superstars at the moment, recorded "God Gave Rock and Roll to You" which was later covered by KISS. KISS was the band two ministers from Minnesota branded as the worst of the worst. So is this a "Christian" song? Why should it matter who is performing it?

I enjoy some "Christian" branded music (Mark Heard, Keith Green), major label music which explores religious themes (16 Horsepower, Uncle Tupelo) as well as non-religious music (Frank Zappa, The Velvet Underground). My main issue is a lot of the music I enjoy explores really dark themes. And I notice a change in my mood when I focus too much time on it. (A problem I don't have when listening to Keith Green.)

At the heart of it, I see no point in arguing which is better. Whenever you find music you enjoy, then that's a wonderful thing.

-NP

NP, i agree in part...especially with how music can affect us. that is a huge reason why i quit listening to metal and other crap like that. it got into my brain and my emotions, even though it took years for me to admit that. my attitude and demeanor are 100x better listening to genuine Christian music (not the phony stuff some people make just to sell records).

so, using how music affects us as a test, it is clear to me that we need to be really stinking careful what we listen to...not just when around our kids.

tb

I listen to both, secular and so called Christian music. My problem is that listening to the lyrics from some of christian labeled artists are pretty watered down. It's almost like they decided to throw the name of Jesus in there just to keep the Christian tag. Just a few I heard but for some reason when It's a band labeled as a Christian band I become more critical in the lyrics in the same way as I do listening to a sermon, I want accuracy and some meat to the words.

Secular music I can't understand half the words anyways so I go for the music itself. Maybe that's why I now listen to a lot of movie scores and other lyric less styles of music.

My daughter listens to the normal music as most of todays teenagers. But she is pretty observant to lyrics and if a song has flat out sexual lyrics or bad language she will not listen to it by her own decision.

I'm defiantly not saying my way of thinking is the right. In fact I'm pretty sure I'm screwed up in the way I go about most things in my walk with the Lord. He usually has to smack me around a few times before I see it His way. :)

I think its fun to read about Larry Norman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Norman
He was one of the further contempary christian artists who came out of the Jesus Movement. People like Cliff Richard and DC Talk are well influenced by him. Also interestingly enough is his oppinion on Christian music which pretty much mirrors yours! He was actually banned by many christian music stores because of his anti-racism and lyrics about the poor. Outcast is pretty amazing.

I think Tourniquet is one of the most innovative Christian bands around. They write metal music that is easily more interesting, new whilst still being good compared to most secular bands.

As I my self have been "smacked around" a bit by the Lord. I too have made more of a move to Christian music and less of the secular. It does effect the emotions of the listener(s), good, bad or other wise thats all part of it.

I heard this at some point ( I think it was in a Ken Davis skit). The base of the skit was this, we wouldn't let the bad people from whatever TV show was on the tube just walk in our front door, so why do we allow them to show on our TV?

This makes sense and could be said for the music we listen to as well. Bottom line, just be careful to what you allowing into your home, ect.

AS others, we have been listening to the Christian radio stations and bands since our kids were babies. In this I have found my self being moved by the music. As for my kids as well. There is nothing better than hearing my 11 and 8 year old kids jammin to the new Toby Mac song (or whoever) in the back seat. :-) This is, of course, because our radio is always tuned to K-LOVE or Air1.

for those interested, there might be some things on the rise from the great Christian band, The Prayer Chain.

I own the domain and have been working with a few band members in putting up a quick site... i am not yet sure what they are planning but hopefully something new :)

www.theprayerchain.com

it is all up to the station that you listen too. It is true in some areas there maybe 1 choice for Christian music. larger markets have more of a selection. On the internet there are tones of internet only stations.

Also if you dont like the music Call or write the station letting them know how you feel. Suggestions always help!

Christian music easily compares with the secular these days. Or in-fact its better! Most new mainstream stuff is honestly rubbish. In the last 15years Christian bands (not genre, because there really is not genre for Christians unless you would like to file it in Christian Rock, Christian Rap, etc..) have really excelled in quality music.

Like tb stated about some bands, ill add some more: Thirdday, DC Talk (old school 'christian'), Casting Crowns, Seventh Day Slumber, Pillar, Switchfoot (christian and mainstream), P.O.D (christian and mainstream), Superchik, Kutless, Newsboys, and so many many more with quality recording and performance.

As far as stating that some bands just seem to throw in 'Jesus' to keep the title of Christian, isn't a good one. Who are we to judge where there heart is at or what God has told them to do?

But if you do not like Christian music because it emphasises 'unprofessional' -- Id encourage you to look at any of those bands I mentioned on youtube (ofcourse judge according the genre you like, so dont listen to TobyMac if you love ROCK only)! TRY IT, You might like it :P

All my comments are neutral and im not meaning to attack so read it nicely =)

I hope you find this post helpful!

Thanks,
Josh

Neal Morse is a progressive rock artist who is unquestionably one of the leading artists in his genre. Check out his story of becoming a Christian on his albums Testimony (2003) and Testimony 2 (2011). It's a great story, and the guest musicians list on his albums usually reads like a who's who of various genres: Mike Portnoy (Dream Theater, Avenged Sevenfold), Paul Gilbert (Mr. Big, Racer X), Steve Morse (Dixie Dregs, Kansas, Deep Purple), etc. Check him out sometime - the musician's musician! http://www.nealmorse.com/

The Amish believe that music is from the Devil and thus never listen to music or engage in making there own.

This seems very sad to me, but they read from the same bible and the same teachings as Christianity.

Why is that the two differ in belief in this subject?

hey i have an idea, how about you crawl all throughout this site and figure out all the ways you can throw darts at Christianity?

Wow, that was highly inappropriate.

Just asking questions and provoking discussion.

The Amish believe that music is from the Devil and thus never listen to music or engage in making there own.

This seems very sad to me, but they read from the same bible and the same teachings as Christianity.

Why is that the two differ in belief in this subject?

Where did you hear such a thing? Amish people sing... just youtube it. Though I am no expert on that way of living.

Do all atheists have the same stance on all topics... example, abortion or the like? No. People always have their own interpretations, or idea's on how we should live life. With Christians, we all believe the same thing—the main picture—that God sent His one and only Son to pay the price for my sins.

Though back on topic of music, I was Easterfest 2012. A music festival in Toowoomba AU, it was with some great bands turning out.

One band that stood out was Rapture Ruckus, check out these songs (NZ band):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L81Wxi-IlU

I stand slightly corrected on that one, Amish people do not enjoy certain types of music. Mainly the beating of a drum. Christian Rock Music for example would not be acceptable. Can anyone offer any ideas about that. You know in a discussion...

Unlike theists, atheists prefer to make up there on mind on topics. By researching facts, looking at scientific evidence and questioning there own personal morals as well as using past experiences.

If you only choose to believe what is written in an ancient book then there is no hope for you. It must be like living in a fascist dictatorship where you only believe in what you are told. You are to have no personal beliefs only what is forced upon you. You are kept a subscriber to this regime by being held accountable for all your sins, the punishment for which being an eternity in hell. You can only escape this fate by obeying your all powerful leader.

Its amazingly clever, its incredibly sinister, its very North Korea, its just population control.

In my personal opinion of course.

the amount of negativity and hatred in your post is incredible. i truly feel sorry for you.

newagethinker,

This seems very sad to me, but they read from the same bible and the same teachings as Christianity. Why is that the two differ in belief in this subject?

Unlike theists, atheists prefer to make up there on mind on topics.

Debate is a good thing! Scientists understand this and are certainly not in lock-step agreement of every detail. The entire idea of a medical "second opinion" implies clinicians may view the same situation differently. I suspect, we'd agree this is a good process.

However, when it comes to religion, we are criticized for not agreeing, then later in the same thread, for not thinking for ourselves. Are you truly suggesting any sample containing over two billion people* could produce a group, none of whom is capable of independent thought? Theologians, after all, are the folks who will endlessly debate minutia. >grin<

*and that's just Christians, not all theists.

... .. .

It is evident that he has just come to stir. Let him be.

I am with tb, I also am truly sorry for him :(

Josh.

Joshua...well put and agreed.

Joshua, TB: You clearly have nothing more to add to this discussion so I will let you be with your petty sarcasm. I would suggest that you at least conceive the possibility of being a Christian, believing in God but take the bible with a pinch of salt. Believing so literally in the bible is not a rational way to think in this modern day. Even when it was written, by Man, it was only intended to be understood as a metaphor not literal fact. Stories to provoke though, not to be believed as the truth to the letter.

Nonprofit: I agree, If you take a large sample of people then you will find a large proportion of people are free thinkers. Some people are happy to follow and never to question, as we move forward more as a human race though people are not so easily lead. My gripe is that Christianity can and will try to suppress free thinking individual belief and force people to believe things that are not appropriate in the modern day. Catholicism on the use of condoms, the church on homosexuality etc.

I thought most modern day Christians adopt the basic principals of the religion. Living a good and honest life, respecting and caring for their families and honouring their supreme creator. This is the same basic principal in all religions.

But then I ask the question if you are not a fundamental Christian, and decide in yourself that perhaps some things in the bible are outdated. That perhaps I don't agree with everything the religious leaders say. Then why bother with a specific religion at all.

Why can't people believe in a God without subscribing to a specific religion. Isn't religion one of the biggest causes of all hatred in the world?

On a side note, are you are a young earth creationists. Do you understand the Bible literally?

newagethinker,

On a side note, are you are a young earth creationists. Do you understand the Bible literally?

What do Christians believe? Well, there are people who believe God created the world in seven 24 hour periods. There are others who think the reference to "days" is allegorical and actually references longer time spans. Theistic evolution, which predates Darwin, believes natural processes took over after the moment of creation. Others believe Darwin's account. Of the approximately one third of the world's population identified as Christian it contains people of all ages, education levels, ethnic backgrounds and from nearly every geographic location. From this extremely diverse pool of individuals I'm certain in addition to the above, there are many, many more theories of how it all went down.

I thought most modern day Christians adopt the basic principals of the religion. Living a good and honest life, respecting and caring for their families and honouring their supreme creator.

I actually respect this insight; for you beat me to the punch. All of the folks here likely have an opinion of what happened, but I suspect we're each more interested in what the Bible says about how we treat our neighbor, or the poor, or how to best spend our money than how literal the Genesis account is. Christians who are drawn to debating such issues are more likely to do so in scientific circles. I truly have no idea what the folks on Geeks and God believe because we've never discussed it. I do know there's at least one guy I'd peg as "Fundamentalist." There's another who was in a punk band and digs Megadeth. Most of us have some connection to a church, live music, or Drupal. Mostly we like to ask each other questions about mics and amps and php and why anyone would ever run an IIS server. But what if everyone here happened to believe whatever is, in your opinion, the stupidest of the above options? Why does that open us up for so much ridicule?

My gripe is that Christianity can and will try to suppress free thinking individual belief and force people to believe things that are not appropriate in the modern day.

No one here is trying to manipulate what you believe. We don't even discuss these things between ourselves. Certainly people have used Christianity as a way to control, but throughout history folks have made attempts to leverage politics, education, military force, and just about every other institution, as well. If you have ever been part of a religious community which attempted to do so to you, I'm truly sorry and happy you had the insight and ability to get away. Cults do terrible things to people and mixing religion and abusive control is a toxic cocktail.

What has been so difficult about every one of your posts is you repeatedly maintain we're intolerant while insisting our beliefs are inappropriate.

I'm purely enjoying the discussion, and I'm trying to understand peoples beliefs.

You have said only up the page that "debate is a good thing" and In other posts you have welcomed my alternative views.

I am posting in the "less Geek more God forum" I appreciate the main purpose of your forum is a technical forum and if people are not interested in discussing their beliefs they do not have to involve themselves. I am not spamming your forum where it is not inappropriate.

Perhaps a new thread should be started where the discussion can take place. Clearly titled to let people know that the content within may make them feel uncomfortable.

However if someone is 100% confident in their belief, I can't understand why anyone would find such discussion uncomfortable unless it is actually causing them to think differently.

I take it you do not take the Bible completely literally and believe it is somewhat open for interpretation? If this is the case, does that not mean that it can't be THE word of God and then therefore it all starts to fall apart. For me, In my personal opinion. I would like to hear your opinion on this.

I take it you do not take the Bible completely literally and believe it is somewhat open for interpretation? If this is the case, does that not mean that it can't be THE word of God and then therefore it all starts to fall apart. For me, In my personal opinion. I would like to hear your opinion on this.

In John 10:9 Jesus states "I am the door." However, I do not believe Jesus was a physical door, I believe he was speaking metaphorically. None of the parables are to be taken as actual historical events, they were stories told to illustrate a greater truth. There is also law, history, poetry, epistles, prophecy, and apocalyptic literature. Each is distinct in style and each serves a unique purpose.

Furthermore, The Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew. I read it in English. Therefore a translation or paraphrase may muddy the original intent. The Bible was written a long time ago one must apply cultural references we may not fully understand. There is a lot about farming and shepherds in The Bible. I've never met a shepherd and must do my best to understand their culture.

There is actually a lot of interpretation that's required, even for people who strive to interpret the book very literally.

Interesting, what does the bible say about its creation? I understand it is the word of God but how did it get put into writing.

Joshua - how do you feel about Nonprofits opinion on the Bible not being taken literally. Do you think perhaps the creations story could be more metaphoric?

In response to the thread you have just closed. Firstly I think it now looks as if TB is a homophobe, and he has not had a chance to say otherwise, seems unfair to me. I also don't understand why you removed the last two comments. It was provocative, but not directly offensive.

I also don't know where I have failed to answer any questions, but I would really like to make sure I do answer these questions. I shall start a discussion thread :)

In an act of good faith, the threads are again open. I ask everyone to please remember to be kind.

There is actually a lot of interpretation that's required, even for people who strive to interpret the book very literally.

Re:

Joshua - how do you feel about Nonprofits opinion on the Bible not being taken literally. Do you think perhaps the creations story could be more metaphoric?

I believe the genesis account is literal. Not just from scienctific evidence (which you do not want to read) but from Jesus' perspective.

Here is some study for you:
A nice table of New Testiment references to Geneses chapters 1 - 11
http://tiny.cc/gqomcw

Why would NT authors refer to a mythical creation account?

Also, even Dawkins realises the importance for Christians to believe in the historical account of Genesis, See here. He says "Theistic evolutionists are deluded"!

Josh.

Also, even Dawkins realises the importance for Christians to believe in the historical account of Genesis, See here. He says "Theistic evolutionists are deluded"!

Dawkins thinks all theists are deluded, regardless of their view on genesis.

Yet another example of the 'cherry picking' and twisting of evidence that occurs among believers.

Also, even Dawkins realises the importance for Christians to believe in the historical account of Genesis, See here. He says "Theistic evolutionists are deluded"!

What Dawkins means is that the Theists who choose to believe in evolution also have to decide that they do not believe the Bible interpretation of how life was formed. If you don't believe parts of the Bible how can you say you believe any of it?

Here's an interesting passage from the Bible, what is your view on it?

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker?

If you don't believe parts of the Bible how can you say you believe any of it?

I agree.

I find it interesting how you jump from one topic to another, nearly every post...

Passages taken out of context to support rape:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29: To understand the reason behind this law, it is necessary to point out a few details. First, the Hebrew word here is simply the word “to have sexual relations with”; some English translations simply interpret this as “rape.” In the ancient world, women were so closely guarded by their families that it is possible that in this instance, it is not rape at all, and that the woman was willing. Furthermore, even in the case of rape, the woman might well demand that the man marry her because she would be unmarriageable. See 2 Samuel 13:1–22 for an instance where a rape victim demanded marriage.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24: Like the above, this law uses the word for “to have sexual relations with”; some modern translations assume the meaning “rape” but this is not in the original. This refers specifically to engaged women (in the ancient world engagement was as legally binding as marriage and required a divorce to cancel) who are inside a town. As closely-packed as ancient towns were, she would be helped if she screamed; since she did not scream, there is an assumption that it was not rape, but adultery.

Furthermore, why is the atheist concerned? Two atheistic evolutionists wrote a book with the horrifying claim that men rape for evolutionary reasons—one of them squirmed in an interview to justify why rape should be considered wrong under his worldview.

Source: L.Cosner (B.A. in Biblical Studies)

The Book: A Natural History of Rape: Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion by Randy Thornhill, Craig T. Palmer. Available on Amazon seeing as your so interested.

Now here is one for you...

How did sex originate?

Please provide evidence?

Read back through. You ask me questions and I answer. I then present you with a new question as you haven't, or can't answer my last question.

Surely God created the world, so I guess he created all the languages. First up why did he not give us just the one language? Or at least why not make all the languages translate into each other better. Doesn't really seem the work of an all powerful creator.

Seems more like languages have evolved, hence the difference and also similarities. The Bible was written by mere mortals, hence why it has such continuity errors.

There are several "Theories" for how sex originated, I will let you google these on your own ;)

Just because science can't provide all the answers doesn't mean it points back to God, or more specifically young earth creationism.

There are several "Theories" for how sex originated, I will let you google these on your own ;)

Sadly, I didn't expect anything less.

First up why did he not give us just the one language? Or at least why not make all the languages translate into each other better. Doesn't really seem the work of an all powerful creator.

This is a great question.

Seems more like languages have evolved, hence the difference and also similarities.

But don't jump the gun here.
We know there could only of been one language when God created as there were only two people? Remember Adam and Eve?

Read Genesis 11

The Tower of Babel
1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel—because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

You do not need to be a theologian to understand why God split the languages.

... so that we may make a name for ourselves ...

God simply does not tolerate this sort of action or thinking. We are to be self-less, not boastful, arrogant or full of pride for these things are evil. And..

... otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.

This was also clear disobedience from what God had told them to do. In Genesis 9:1

“Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.”

and again in verse 7

“As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”

To the point...
You are absolutely right!

Surely God created the world, so I guess he created all the languages.

Josh.

All this scripture quoting makes me want to go grab Lord of the Rings and find some profound quotes to post in return.
We haven't actually yet heard what YOU think Joshua.

We haven't actually yet heard what YOU think Joshua.

We have heard what Josh thinks...and it can clearly be deduced from what he quoted.

We have heard what Josh thinks...and it can clearly be deduced from what he quoted.

With the greatest respect, this isn't Joshua thinking, this is Joshua quoting what someone else has told him to think.

I maintain referencing a few select passages out of a long document actually demonstrates significantly more thought than spouting something off the top of his head.

And since when does personal opinion trump citing a documented source?

Though, as the Good Word says, the battle is not mine, but His.

NonProfit is right, you have heard (much of) what I think.