Can you get a test drive of their Extended web platform? We use ACS but not that part of it. No idea what it looks like.

You might was to talk to the trustees about the technology. Who on the tech side of things is included in the decisions? Who has to maintain in? If they don't include the tech people in the decision making process that's not good or healthy.

The problem is the Programming team at the Church and several others seem to make technology decisions. There is no "IT Team" at the Church which is something I REALLY REALLY REALLY would like.

As for a Test Drive, I will have to ask...

Incidently, what does ACS run on? SQL Server?

I did find a church that uses it:

http://www.parkstreet.org/

Do a google search for "Empowered by Extend"
Lots of sites using it.
ACS doesn't have to be used with Extend

Never heard of it, so I thought I'd wander around a bit on the web and see what I could see. Soo..

It's a .NET sort of thing, it appears (can't find anything using it running anything other than IIS, which is generally a dead giveaway for that). Right off that bat that means less security and greater operating cost than an OS solution like Drupal or Joomla. It also means it runs on a minority of the servers on the web. (Apache has the highest market share, serving just about half of the web sites on the Internet. IIS is in second, but at a little over half apache's share. IIS jumped closer to apache in 2006 -- before then it was less than half apache's size -- but the distance has been holding fairly steady since mid-2007. Third place is a Russian server engine called "NgineX" which is predominantly used for Ruby and Rails applications, but serves others as well.)

Also, pass a few of the Extend sites through the W3C's validator and see the quality of code it generates. Lowest total I came up with was 84 errors on the set of sites I tried. That was 84 errors found in 167 lines of markup, testing against XHTML transitional (a loose form of the spec first published 9 years ago) the spec the document *said* it was written for. When I overruled it and tried it against HTML4.01 transitional, which is the loosest standard specification I could find, and published 12 years(!) ago, it still didn't pass, but was down to 15 errors plus 9 warnings (most of the latter caused by the fact that while most of the code was marked up using HTML tag conventions, some of it used XHTML tag conventions).

The fact that Extend costs several times more to run and doesn't follow standards but instead uses archaic coding conventions would bother me as a professional, even if it doesn't bother your board. The fact that it only runs on Windows should bother everyone in the church whose personal data can be exposed through one of the security holes in Windows.

Personally, I don't trust software that only runs on one platform; it tends to show the developers as a bit myopic, and that might bite me later in the game, when I want to do something they haven't thought of first. But that's just me.

I can make some speculations about what the package is and how it works, but that would be only speculation so I'll refrain. I just looked at their minimum charge of $20/month (for that they only give you one user and 5 "channels" whatever they are) and saw that is 3-4x the going rate for non-Windows servers in the market (for $20/month these days I can get an entire virtual server and set up a whole lot of sites with lots of users in each one, for less than twice that I can have them manage a server that I own). Linux/CentOS hosting options routinely run under $10, very few Windows hosting options run under $15.

My professional opinion: what I read "on the box," so to speak, of this package would keep me from using it. I think the cost is unreasonably high for my main point against it. That plus the fact it goes "against the tide" so to speak by choosing a minority platform (Windows may own the desktop, but they've hardly made a dent in the server room) and refusing to support standards, while the move is on by everyone else (even by MS, one might add -- MSN.com passes validation despite being a much larger and more complicated page) to support standards. (And don't let them tell you they can't support standards because they're building with .NET. Some folks try to say that but I've *built* standards-compliant sites in .NET and it's definitely possible; not even all that more difficult than outside of .NET to be honest.)

If Extend relies on .Net, that means SQLserver. I might suggest that they buy ACS, but maybe just use Joomla for the frontend. It should be possible to plug some of the data into Joomla if possible.

Extend is a hosted content management system. No software for you to install. As to it's merit and how it compares to other systems, I will leave that open for discussion. In response to Arlen, the needs for a church content management system vary on how the church and it's staff and/or volunteers are going to use it. It's an unfair to compare any web solution without knowing the requirements and how it's going to be used. I base this on my experience searching right content management solution for our church over the last 5-6 years.

Gorken: If you have specific requirements you are trying to meet, or you know how the system (content management or church management system) is going to be used, I would be happy to provide some feedback. There certainly is a connection between the content management and the church management system. In the case for ACS, both can used together or separately, although they can be integrated together rather tightly.

I'm not sure where I compared web solutions. I looked at Extend and said it was overpriced as a hosting solution and it ignored modern coding practices. Now, that's just my opinion, harsh though it may be, based on more years of experience building websites with and without content management systems backing them up than I like to admit (let's just say I was here when Netscape 0.9 was in beta and leave it at that). But it's also not a comparison with other packages, it's a measurement against a standard. I could have used the same standard to measure Drupal or Joomla, but since the question was about Extend, that's what I limited myself to. I figured Rob and Matt could speak for Drupal and Gorkon already knew about Joomla.

I completely agree the fitness of any package is governed by requirements of the project. We all use different standards, and I'm sure things that I use every day would at the very least raise *your* eyebrows, if not mortify you. What I said was due to the information on the "outside of the box" Extend wouldn't make it to the comparison stage with me; it wouldn't get the opportunity to put its features in the matrix because it wouldn't meet my standards, either for cost or for template coding. If it meets your standards and you're using it for your church, fine, more power to you and I hope it makes you happy and does everything you ask of it. Use it with my blessings.

Gorkon, if the data you'd need to pass out of ACS can be caught in a spreadsheet, you can get it into any CMS you want to put it into (with a little ingenuity, even it is only a text file). Let us know how it goes and if you need some help, OK?

A lot has been said and I am thinking the same way. I have often suggested hosting and they say oh yeah we have that and so and so moved a server into a cage for us which sounds a lot like they just have it off site and not in a regular data center and regularly backed up. IN face, it sounds a lot like a collection of frontpage like pages. Not very modern by any means.

As for a CMS, it sounds a lot like they don't have any management system and rely on spreadsheets and access databases...but I am not too sure on that yet.

One thing I am going to pray and ask for of the church is some others to help me. I have a lot of great ideas but I can't do it all alone. I of course have a real job and family to take care of as well. I would SO love to have a job setting up systems for Churches, but that's probably not going to happen.

I wouldn't say it's not a management system just because it publishes spreadsheets and access pages. That qualifies as a CMS, too. CMS's can even run off flat files. The only thing required is some software somewhere that puts the pages together when requested.

Once it was a common thing to get started in the web freelance business by building sites for churches. (That's the way Zeldman started, for one example.) It's more difficult now, because every church has some kids that know how to use Dreamweaver, which has the effect of devaluing web skills in the volunteer world (sadly, at least half of the non-profits I've met lately would rather get a mediocre job for free from a volunteer than pay even heavily discounted rates for a professional) and is slowly closing that off as a possibility.

But don't let that stop you. If that's where you think God's calling you, start putting together a set of modules for a CMS you're comfortable with (the Big Three are Drupal, Joomla and Wordpress, but there are others, like Expression Engine, that are definitely worth checking out) that would meet the features you see on other church websites. Get familiar with them, how to best use and customize them, and let your pastor know that's where you think God is taking you. Build an example site or two, if you can't find a real church to build for. Pastors talk to one another, and somewhere along the way, one will hear about you and call you. It's not just a possibility; if that's where God wants you, it *will* happen.

You got that right! With God, all things are possible.

I know I would probably be better doing this kind of stuff for a church or Christian Uni AND the best part is I work north of OCU or Ohio Christian University. I have been scanning the website for IT positions there.

I guess where I am going is I wish I had a job where more people were sensitive to my beliefs. Don't get me wrong...I don't believe in being isolated, but the IT industry can weigh heavy on your morals with people talking about drinking and more. Since I don't say anything, and largely don't see much wrong with what they say, they occasionally go down a path I don't want to follow. I just pray for them that God eventually let's me a influence.

When in IT, employers constantly ask you to do things like be on call and stuff. They also ask you to do the impossible and when you DO make the impossible possible, then you are expected to constantly do the impossible and sometimes that forces you to make decisions that you should not have to make. My family comes first after God. Period. Sometimes I feel my employer makes me change that priority far more often then I would like.

Pray fo rme for that and my Church project!

I'll pray for your church to get what it needs and for you to get the opportunity you need, and for you to be reconciled with the answers to either or both if they're not what you wanted to hear.

(That last bit is always the most difficult, and I say that from long experience.)

I would talk to the programming team about getting some IT people to advise them. Especially the people who would have to implement the solution. God gives different people different gifts. It would be good for them to involve the people with the gifts in this area.

If they want to make technical decisions but aren't technical I'd press them if it was appropriate for a technical person to make theological or management decisions without input from those people. If it's not why would it be ok for non-technical people to make technical decisions without technical input? Sometimes it can be easy to minimize the value of tech people and what they do.

.NET, MSSQL, and closed solutions are not in and of themselves bad. I'm one of those people who recommends going with a closed ChMS solution because the gains out weight the bad. But, extend looks to use some table based layout and some other bad practices. It may not be the engine and just the presentation layer. But, from what I saw I don't like it.

Also, .NET is not inherently insecure. MS Servers have had much better security in recent years. And, for a MS expert creating sites on a MS box is going to be more cost effective than a LAMP server. Our goal is the mission. Technology is an aid to that. We want to be cost effective and missionally effective.

There is a lot of insecure and poorly written PHP out there in some popular open source projects. The quality of the developer makes a world of difference.

I'm a geek. I know it, I love it, and I live it.
But when it comes to plumbing I suck, and I call a plumber.
Why do so many people think that they can skip calling in a techie person when they are planning to deploy new technology? What did we do to deserve being over looked?
If your church doesn't have a geek on staff or even on call, get one ASAP. Put an insert in the bulletin, or do an all call from the stage. Geeks love to be geeks and they will step forward.
Just make sure you word it right so they don't think they are going to be abused.
Sample announcement - "We are looking to put together a team of technology consultants for the church. We have a number of projects that will be coming up this year that we want to make sure the techie stuff gets done right". Remember to not publicly call them geeks, some still seem to take offense to the term.
Remember to respect their time. Offer to bring them into planning meetings only when they are needed, and when it comes to deployment, remember to give them the option of saying no thanks.

I've been on staff at my church for 2 years now, and with the amount of work I do and projects I work on, I don't understand how churches get by without a geek on staff. If you do techie stuff at your church and it's not your primary role, please stop. Find a techie and spend your time supporting your congregation and community.

Try being a writer, sometime. Every one thinks that because they've been speaking the language for decades, writing must be easy.

IOW, everybody gets put upon. Even doctors. We just deal and keep moving.

Just remember the line I saw on a T-shirt at the last WorldCon I attended: "Geek. Once it was a four-letter word, now it's a six-figure income."

(Yeah, I wish, too, but the sentiment makes the point.)

Hi gang!
I have a bunch of ideas and observations about how you may go about getting that tech group started. If nothing else it's an article of how we started a tech group in our church and may help in yours. If you are interested, take a look at my blog article and see if you can use any of it.

I was going to make it a post here but it got so long I felt guilty so I just put it on mine and pointed it. I hope it helps someone!

Peace